Open Week Begins with a vacation Photo

[Daniel Zuck]

Greg:

Before I get onto the next assignment, i still have some housekeeping issues I wish to discuss with you. I have a massive amount of questions to ask you.  I've been doing photo shop elements for years and always wondered why i was doing the things I do.  Sorry to ask you, but I have 2 main questions and two subsidiary questions associated with each?

1.  about the color management issues with PSE.  I have the following 4 choices under "color settings" in the organizer under "edit"

"no color management; always optimize colors for computer screens; always optimize for printing; allow me to choose. The latter allows me to choose between adobe RGB and sRGB color profiles when opening files that do not have profiles, or contain unsupported profiles, in the photoshop elements editor.  sRGB will always be used when viewing in the organizer in the last choice." All this stuff is actually written when the organizer is opened and the selection edit, color setting is chosen.

That latter choice is the one I now have, that is, the very last choice is checked.  All my photo editing is done in sRGB.

a) So you are telling me now that for years i've been doing it wrong, the correct choice should be the first choice, that is, no color management?  Is that only for CM? But what I do is to first make my edits in PSE, then, when I'm done, do the fine tuning under CM.  So what is the optimum solution if I'm going to use both CM and PSE?

I've always done my PSE edits in sRGB, same with CM. But you say its wrong? But what's the best color management selection to do color changes in PSE with the purpose of printing my stuff at a professional photo finisher or printing place, if I'm not going to use CM?


And b) if I am going to edit colors in PSE only, how do i make sure that the colors I am looking at on the screen will match the colors of the commercial photo finisher that i send my pix to.  Ditto if I'm going to do my edits only in CM, what is the best color management selection if I want to have my pix sent to a commercial photo processor.  Finally, what do i do when I do edits in both PSE and CM together and the pictures go to the commercial printer? 

Now for the next question. 

2. In the PSE editor, when i look under "file" to convert a jpg file to a web image, these two numbers are automatically appearing in the dimension slots: width =1914 and height = 1276.  The way I found out the proportion to send my web image to CM was to solve for x; 1914/1276 = 1024/x, x= 682.  So width = 1024 and height = 682. This is a simple algebraic proportion problem, nothing more, based on your note to use 1024 x 1024 size you sent us on "how to post an image."  I am able to send you the image with the 1024 x 682 proportions.  I went back and looked at Art's suggestion, and he's right, in PSE under resize, there is a box in under "image" in PSE where if you type 1024 for the width, the height 682 will appear automatically under resize, pixel dimensions.  I actually use this to blow up my pixs 20% in size but had no idea one could use this for web image sizing.

If I am going to send my pix to a commercial photo finisher I never even bother looking at the resizing option because I crop using the aspect ratio.  I didn't even know that  in the editor under resize, image size, "pixel dimensions" is for the screen, and "document size" is for printing.  I should have realized that "document" was for printing only, but I didn't.  Art just explained it to me in his posting.

When I make a change in the aspect ratio, which i use for cropping and which is always visible at the top of the screen without selecting anything, any change, 4x6 or 6x4 has no effect on either pixel dimensions or document size found in the editor under "resize," "image size." 

So my question is a) Should I be worrying about this resize stuff when i send pix to the commercial photo finisher?  The way i do it now, is I just crop it under aspect ratio and use the same dimensions 4x6, etc., etc. in the software the commercial printer uses.  They never ask me, I think, what is your pixel size?  Also, in the editor, resize, image size, the number 319 appears in the resolution box under document size, pixels/inches.  That is 319 pixels per inch.  There's a different number for cm.

So my second question (b) is: I do not print my pixs myself.  So when i send my pixs to the photo finisher, is 319 the correct pixel resolution to give them?  Should I make it higher in photoshop elements if i want higher resolution pixs?


sorry for all these questions, but I've been working with PSE for years and always wondered about this stuff and could never figure out what was what.

thanks.

dan

[ggroess]

Dan,
I am reading your questions and will respond fully...

Great questions and I want to give you thoughtful answers.
Greg

[ggroess]

Greg:

Before I get onto the next assignment, i still have some housekeeping issues I wish to discuss with you. I have a massive amount of questions to ask you.  I've been doing photo shop elements for years and always wondered why i was doing the things I do.  Sorry to ask you, but I have 2 main questions and two subsidiary questions associated with each?

1.  about the color management issues with PSE.  I have the following 4 choices under "color settings" in the organizer under "edit"

"no color management; always optimize colors for computer screens; always optimize for printing; allow me to choose. The latter allows me to choose between adobe RGB and sRGB color profiles when opening files that do not have profiles, or contain unsupported profiles, in the photoshop elements editor.  sRGB will always be used when viewing in the organizer in the last choice." All this stuff is actually written when the organizer is opened and the selection edit, color setting is chosen.

That latter choice is the one I now have, that is, the very last choice is checked.  All my photo editing is done in sRGB.

a) So you are telling me now that for years i've been doing it wrong, the correct choice should be the first choice, that is, no color management?  Is that only for CM? But what I do is to first make my edits in PSE, then, when I'm done, do the fine tuning under CM.  So what is the optimum solution if I'm going to use both CM and PSE?

I've always done my PSE edits in sRGB, same with CM. But you say its wrong? But what's the best color management selection to do color changes in PSE with the purpose of printing my stuff at a professional photo finisher or printing place, if I'm not going to use CM?

PSE and PS allow you to add a color profile to the image when you save.  The critical area for these is in the "save" dialog.  The display values that you described above are for how the organizer displays the images for you; it is also the default profile that will be offered to you in the "save as" dialog.

I checked my settings in both areas.  In the display areas that you have described above I have sRGB set as my default.  In the "Save As" area It shows up as a check box that I leave open unless I am sending out for prints.  I have my professional printing service profiled to sRGB IEC61966 and I check the box when I am sending to that service. 

Color profiles are confusing and can have a profound impact on the image. If you are happy with your results do not change because of Curvemeister.  Curvemeister reads in the file in the color space you have it in PS or PSE and returns the file to that color space when you are done editing.  I know Mike is talking about adding support for ProRGB and a few other color spaces that are not native to Curvemeister and these would become a radio button choice for the user like LAB and CMYK are today.

And b) if I am going to edit colors in PSE only, how do i make sure that the colors I am looking at on the screen will match the colors of the commercial photo finisher that i send my pix to.  Ditto if I'm going to do my edits only in CM, what is the best color management selection if I want to have my pix sent to a commercial photo processor.  Finally, what do i do when I do edits in both PSE and CM together and the pictures go to the commercial printer? 

If your Processor uses sRGB then you are fine...see above.  Remember CM does not change the profile of the image it works in a mathematical space that represents the color profile and converts the result back to the original space.  There is some dialog about this when we get to LAB saturation later in the class.

Now for the next question. 

2. In the PSE editor, when i look under "file" to convert a jpg file to a web image, these two numbers are automatically appearing in the dimension slots: width =1914 and height = 1276.  The way I found out the proportion to send my web image to CM was to solve for x; 1914/1276 = 1024/x, x= 682.  So width = 1024 and height = 682. This is a simple algebraic proportion problem, nothing more, based on your note to use 1024 x 1024 size you sent us on "how to post an image."  I am able to send you the image with the 1024 x 682 proportions.  I went back and looked at Art's suggestion, and he's right, in PSE under resize, there is a box in under "image" in PSE where if you type 1024 for the width, the height 682 will appear automatically under resize, pixel dimensions.  I actually use this to blow up my pixs 20% in size but had no idea one could use this for web image sizing.

If I am going to send my pix to a commercial photo finisher I never even bother looking at the resizing option because I crop using the aspect ratio.  I didn't even know that  in the editor under resize, image size, "pixel dimensions" is for the screen, and "document size" is for printing.  I should have realized that "document" was for printing only, but I didn't.  Art just explained it to me in his posting.

When I make a change in the aspect ratio, which i use for cropping and which is always visible at the top of the screen without selecting anything, any change, 4x6 or 6x4 has no effect on either pixel dimensions or document size found in the editor under "resize," "image size." 

So my question is a) Should I be worrying about this resize stuff when i send pix to the commercial photo finisher?

Yes

  The way i do it now, is I just crop it under aspect ratio and use the same dimensions 4x6, etc., etc. in the software the commercial printer uses.  They never ask me, I think, what is your pixel size?  Also, in the editor, resize, image size, the number 319 appears in the resolution box under document size, pixels/inches.  That is 319 pixels per inch.  There's a different number for cm.

So my second question (b) is: I do not print my pixs myself.  So when i send my pixs to the photo finisher, is 319 the correct pixel resolution to give them?  Should I make it higher in photoshop elements if i want higher resolution pixs?

If you are sending your printer 319 PPI 4X6 images you have more than enough pixels in the frame and are doing just fine.  CM does not care how many pixels you have and does not change the number of pixels in the frame.  What comes in goes out...so to speak.

Take a deep breath and know that you are in a good place.  The idea of re-size for the forum is due to file size limits we place on the forum.  I can edit these settings and I do when I need to post a document that is larger than the 315KB per attachment 900KB per posting limit.  As images get bigger and deeper we have to manage the space we allow since we keep the forums alive for you for more than 2 years after the class is over.

Hope this helps...Keep asking great questions.
Greg

[imported_artmar]

Hi Greg,

Along similar lines, I have question:

Given that we're looking closely at all aspects of images in this course, how much of a difference will different monitor calibration settings have? For example, I calibrate mine to 120 cd/m2, 6500k, gamma, 2.2.  If someone else has a monitor with a brightness level of, for example, 80 cd/m2, won't the colours look different on my monitor, since, as I understand it, hues do not change in a linear fashion with change of monitor brightness unless recalibrated at the new brightness level.  Are there monitor settings you would like us to all use for this course, if possible?

Cheers,
Art

[ggroess]

I can visually but when I get to color I always set hue clocks on the image and check the RGB values.  Regardless of the visual response the RGB values should tell me you are correct.

Gamma 2.2 is pretty standard for Windows based work.  6500K is a bit high for me, but your Hue clock values will be the same regardless.

When I do my critiques I look for color correctness by the numbers; and the first thing I do after I open you image is crank up the saturation to see if a hidden color cast jumps out.  After that I look for shadow and highlight thresholds and allow some room for judgement in both areas.  I do not get hung up on 100% adherence to every pixel has to be included.  I believe specular highlights and deep cave opening shadows do not have to have details. 

Ctien has written some about being afraid of the dark...

http://www.curvemeister.com/forum/index.php/topic,3623.0.html

Greg

[imported_artmar]

That'a a great hint  -- Do you move the top of the saturation axis all the way to the left in HSB space?

Art

[ggroess]

Nope..LAB  I don't know of a faster way...Grab the saturation slider and BAMM...done.

[imported_artmar]

Lab seems to reveal the colour cast in shadows, midtones, and highlights, whereas HSB dramatically deepens the saturation primarily in the highlights and midtones, and not the shadow areas. Fascinating.