jpeg and raw

This the forum board for The Curvemeister 101 class starting August 25th 2013
imported_julie
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:41 am

Postby imported_julie » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:17 am

Hi

I have a question
Last year while on holidays I took a series of images on both jpg and raw by mistake
I usually just use jpeg partly to save memory and partly cause I am familiar with it
I have followed discussions here and it seemed with curvemeister there were not major advantages to raw in terms of colour management
But now I have some raw images...
Should I do anything in camera raw or just leave it to curvemeister
Are there particular advantages to both spaces that are worth me learning or being familiar with (will it ever stop)
Is there anything I should really be aware of before I start

Probably big questions but maybe you could point me to some balanced resources
Most of what I have found is very one sided, and seems to bring out vehement support for one or the other, without talking about what each may be best used for

Julie

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:13 pm

Julie,

There is lot's of opinion and process out there and I will tell you that my opinion and process are just another voice...

Here is what I do.

I shoot RAW. 
I have two reasons for doing so and to me both are worth it.

1) Raw is a digital negative.  It records only the data from your sensor and is not camera processed like the JPEG files are.  They look different because there is no JPEG compression and adjustment applied.  When you edit a RAW file in ACR for example; you are creating what has been called a "sidecar" file. This is an XML file that holds all the ACR adjustments and is later used to open the RAW file next time you want to edit it.  BUT...If you want to start over with a fresh look at the RAW file you just delete the matching XML file and you have the original RAW file to re-process and adjust.

If Image processing technology changes in the future you are most likely going to be able to reprocess your RAW files using any reasonable new software that comes out.

2) ACR and other raw tools can do some amazing recovery of lost shadow and highlight details.  This is because files are RAW and unprocessed you are applying the first processing of the files when you open them in PS or Lightroom and you may have different goals for your images than the camera processor that creates the JPG files.  The new ACR is getting better and better.  Currently, I use it to make sure I have all the pixel data in the image before I open in PS.  I generally use a light adjustment on both the shadows and highlights of the image to make sure the histogram does not show any blow outs. 

We can cover this in the last Conference call next Friday. 
Greg


imported_artmar
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Postby imported_artmar » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:54 pm

Hi Greg,

I agree with you about the advantages of shooting RAW, but have a question about something you wrote.  Once I've opened a RAW file (*.CR2 for Canon) in ACR, saving it as a CR2 file is not an option, only PSD, TIFF, JPEG, etc. If I save it, for example, as a PSD file it has a corresponding sidecar file in the folder. But the RAW image, the CF2 file, is still present in the folder and can only be opened in its original state --  that is, I can't seem to over-write it and reopen as a CR2 file with the changes I've made. 
Am I mis-understanding?

Oh, while I'm at it I have another question. The dimensions of my 12 MP camera's RAW files are 4272 x 2848, 69.6 MP; the dimensions of the highest-quality JPEG file are  4272 x 2848, but 34.8 MP. Is it solely the reduction in bit depth that accounts for the difference in size?

Thanks, and Cheers,
Art

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:47 pm

Hi Art,

If you look at the folder with the images you should see a matching XML (Actual label is XMP) file for each CR2 you open in ACR.  If you do not open it in ACR you will not see a matching file.

You cannot over write the CR2 file; thus it is a digital negative. 

If you are not auto saving the XMP files you may have changed a setting in Bridge or ACR to prevent the saving of the adjustment file.  I'm not 100% on that but I always get an XMP file for every NEF file I open..Nikon uses NEF as a RAW extension.

As for the difference between RAW and JPG; remember that the JPEG is a compression algorithm and by nature creates a smaller file.  RAW files are all the data from the sensor. Your camera settings can make the JPEG file even smaller if you want by lowering the quality of the image.

Greg

imported_julie
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Postby imported_julie » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:34 am

Hi

taking this all in at the moment
Like Art I do not get a XML or XMP file
the adjustments I make to the nef file before opening in ps remain visable in bridge once I have closed the file
I have been saving the edited image as a psd
I will check the settings

thanks for the off topic reply

Julie

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Julie,
Are you seeing the PSD as well as the RAW?  Because if you are the XMP files exist somewhere on your system ACR does not over write the RAW file.
It might be a file manager setting that hides certain file types in windows.

I will have to look into my settings a bit but I go into file manager and turn on all files.
See below:

Greg
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sjordan93436
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Postby sjordan93436 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:46 pm

I use ACR or Lightroom before CM.  The heavy lifting of color correction goes to CM.  Far superior product. 

However....  most in badly exposed images or troubled images, I would use ACR twice with different exposures to do a one HDR.  I will sometimes help the image with a shadow or highlight slider.  With a heavy color cast, I might try to do some in ACR.  The newer ACR and Lightroom (before CC) has better highlight and shadow recovery.  Avoid like the plague, saturation, vibrance, and clarity sliders.  Often I will use some of the above for quick export for email or iphone, but if I want to edit, I revert and start over.

The other thing the ACR / LR has is fairly decent noise reduction.  I sometimes use the print, slideshow, and export in LR. 

Dan Margulis is very conservative in his use of ACR also.

BUT I use CM on every image I do in Photoshop at least once.  Best practice is conservative use of ACR followed by color correction in CM, and then luminosity correction.  (or vice versa).  Color boost towards the end to taste.

imported_julie
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:41 am

Postby imported_julie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:09 am

Thanks for all the replies.

I have been working on the few RAW files I have and I am impressed by the amount of correction in I can do.
Recovering shadows and highlights is pretty impressive and noise reduction isn't too bad either.
I have been following your tips Steve and avoiding the sliders.

I leave all the colour work to curvemeister but am starting in better places a lot of the time

Julie,
Are you seeing the PSD as well as the RAW?  Because if you are the XMP files exist somewhere on your system ACR does not over write the RAW file.
It might be a file manager setting that hides certain file types in windows.


I am seeing the PSD as well as the RAW but I only see the edited raw, not the original.
Am I right in presuming that if I open that again and hit the default button I get back to the original RAW file???

Just in case I am not understanding. :-[
when I open a raw file is that in ACR?
Also, why does it open at 240 rather than 300 ppi?

Sorry about all the questions, the more I learn the more there is!

So I will start shooting in raw and see how I go.
Probably need more memory cards before the next holiday

thanks everyone
Julie

sorry for all the questions




ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:23 am


Thanks for all the replies.

I have been working on the few RAW files I have and I am impressed by the amount of correction in I can do.
Recovering shadows and highlights is pretty impressive and noise reduction isn't too bad either.
I have been following your tips Steve and avoiding the sliders.

I leave all the colour work to curvemeister but am starting in better places a lot of the time

Julie,
Are you seeing the PSD as well as the RAW?  Because if you are the XMP files exist somewhere on your system ACR does not over write the RAW file.
It might be a file manager setting that hides certain file types in windows.


I am seeing the PSD as well as the RAW but I only see the edited raw, not the original.
Am I right in presuming that if I open that again and hit the default button I get back to the original RAW file???


No the "Default" returns ACR to the default settings it is installed with.  Have you checked the preferences settings??
See shot 1  Your system may be saving the data to the Raw database rather than the XMP files if that is the case the "Default" might just be resetting the file settings saved in the database.


Just in case I am not understanding. :-[
when I open a raw file is that in ACR?

Yes unless you have another RAW converter installed.


Also, why does it open at 240 rather than 300 ppi?

See Shot 2 you can change the default settings for ACR by clicking on the link circled in the screen shot.


Sorry about all the questions, the more I learn the more there is!

No worries..these are great questions...

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