Using CM to accomplish some of the Picture Postcard Workflow Goals.

Share your quick and clever Photoshop, Elements, or Curvemeister techniques here!
ggroess
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:15 am
Contact:

Postby ggroess » Sun May 05, 2013 1:11 am

Everyone,

First of all some context. 
This video was part of a larger discussion about the Picture Postcard Workflow.

IT IS NOT IN ANY WAY A DEFINITIVE JUDGEMENT ABOUT THE PPW PANEL OR THE WORKFLOW IN GENERAL.

I AM NOT A PPW EXPERT AND DO NOT PRETEND TO FULLY UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE PPW WORKFLOW.


I do still maintain that with good Photoshop skills and a understanding of what is being done in the various parts of the PPW workflow; you need less from the tool set and more from your brain.
I will also admit that I am really taken by the new sharpening action and I am very impressed with the results it has provided to me so far.  The way I see it CM and your brain are more than a match for the panel and multiple versions.

Please keep the discussion polite and sane...

http://www.curvemeister.com/video/greg/PPW_vs_CM/PPW_vs_CM.html
Greg

imported_ganna
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:41 am

Postby imported_ganna » Sun May 05, 2013 10:17 am

Greg, thank you very much for all the hours of sweat we of CM is putting you through. We really appreciate you and Mike. 
I really look forward to the CM 201, but starting to wonder if I should not first do another CM101 as a refresher. Looks like CM 101 is now the same as CM 201 of 3 years ago  :)
I found in my workflow, whenever there is an obvious colour cast, it's better to get it to a more believable appearance, not necessaraly perfect at this point. I am not as familiar and at ease with the "numbers" only on the info panel, therefor a hue clock  is a must, an indispensible item for me. I'm playing around a bit with HDR photography and when there's a colour cast it magnifies in HDR and the wheels easily come off in  my workflow. I would also set the shadow, highlight and neutrals here, mostly in RGB mode.  After that I do the same as your step 1, going through the channels and get the tonality better, ending  with Luminosity blending mode. Now I would do shadow highlight if necessary and then do the proper colour corrction in CM, using Gregs Gray scale pins to get the zone's right; ending this in Color mode. Then I would do just the  colour boost and/or  and MMM in Curvemeister. Lastly I would sharpen, using Dan's sharpening 2013 and detune or fade it as is necessary. I do see that this sharpening action lighten my image more, so to keep it in mind just before this step. Of course each individual image may have its own problems to deal with. I sometimes try the HK effect and just eyeball it, whether its better or not.
Greg, in Dan's PPW workflow, something I missed and only saw a few days ago, is the use of the "Alt" key, where there is more choices in terms of which cannel to use etc.
I wish we could get a script with actions, like this one of Dan, but I want to replace ½ the buttons (actions) with CM actions  ;)
Again, Greg, thanks a lot. Your teaching and input is  widening my horizon all the time. I'm not a professional photographer, like many of the togs out there, but I just love my hobby.

mikemeister_admin
Posts: 4927
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:29 pm

Postby mikemeister_admin » Sun May 05, 2013 11:16 am

Brave Man and thank you.  Mind you I have almost stopped reading the ColourTheory list as there is so much rubbish on it!

I think it is obvious that Manual will always give better results than Automatic - just think of cars and gearboxes.  BUT if you are a pro and want a quick easy life that works most of the time, go automatic.  We amateurs are different, we post-process with love, not for money and want the best - and that must include CM.

On the detail, I think you are selling your use of the Zone system not as it was defined by AA.  The system starts before you press the button, but these days (especially with HDR etc) we can use the idea later in the flow.  I think you are using the Zone system as short-hand way of describing Textured Tones.  So out of interest do you agree with my understanding on this page? http://www.broadhurst-family.co.uk/lefteye/MainPages/zone_system.htm

ggroess
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:15 am
Contact:

Postby ggroess » Sun May 05, 2013 5:42 pm


Brave Man and thank you.  Mind you I have almost stopped reading the ColourTheory list as there is so much rubbish on it!


I thank you Zog.  Brave??!? I think maybe fool hardy... ;D.



I think it is obvious that Manual will always give better results than Automatic - just think of cars and gearboxes.  BUT if you are a pro and want a quick easy life that works most of the time, go automatic.  We amateurs are different, we post-process with love, not for money and want the best - and that must include CM.


I would think it obvious as well.  Sometimes, it seems it's not.


On the detail, I think you are selling your use of the Zone system not as it was defined by AA.  The system starts before you press the button, but these days (especially with HDR etc) we can use the idea later in the flow.  I think you are using the Zone system as short-hand way of describing Textured Tones.  So out of interest do you agree with my understanding on this page? http://www.broadhurst-family.co.uk/lefteye/MainPages/zone_system.htm


I'll have a look on the page.  I don't think of the GS zone system pins as truly zonal workflow.  I do see them as more of a set of guideposts.  Like the anchor point I set for color expansion and boosting it is a place to get back to something I have decided is important.  Using the zone system of tonal "grading" is falling back on things that are well established and many people understand.  They are solid markers for established tonal regions I guess...I'll be thinking more on that as we go...

Greg

ggroess
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:15 am
Contact:

Postby ggroess » Sun May 05, 2013 5:53 pm


Greg, thank you very much for all the hours of sweat we of CM is putting you through. We really appreciate you and Mike. 
I really look forward to the CM 201, but starting to wonder if I should not first do another CM101 as a refresher. Looks like CM 101 is now the same as CM 201 of 3 years ago  :)


I would say that as people come into the class they appear to have a better understanding of workflows and process than they did 3 years ago.  When I started the concept of "201" it was all about workflow; now it's becoming all about tonal control and color expansion.  The workflow is getting easier, the controls and usage better.


I found in my workflow, whenever there is an obvious colour cast, it's better to get it to a more believable appearance, not necessaraly perfect at this point. I am not as familiar and at ease with the "numbers" only on the info panel, therefor a hue clock  is a must, an indispensible item for me. I'm playing around a bit with HDR photography and when there's a colour cast it magnifies in HDR and the wheels easily come off in  my workflow. I would also set the shadow, highlight and neutrals here, mostly in RGB mode.  After that I do the same as your step 1, going through the channels and get the tonality better, ending  with Luminosity blending mode. Now I would do shadow highlight if necessary and then do the proper colour corrction in CM, using Gregs Gray scale pins to get the zone's right; ending this in Color mode. Then I would do just the  colour boost and/or  and MMM in Curvemeister. Lastly I would sharpen, using Dan's sharpening 2013 and detune or fade it as is necessary. I do see that this sharpening action lighten my image more, so to keep it in mind just before this step. Of course each individual image may have its own problems to deal with. I sometimes try the HK effect and just eyeball it, whether its better or not.
Greg, in Dan's PPW workflow, something I missed and only saw a few days ago, is the use of the "Alt" key, where there is more choices in terms of which cannel to use etc.
I wish we could get a script with actions, like this one of Dan, but I want to replace ½ the buttons (actions) with CM actions  ;)
Again, Greg, thanks a lot. Your teaching and input is  widening my horizon all the time. I'm not a professional photographer, like many of the togs out there, but I just love my hobby.


Personally, I wish I could get the scripts without the actions panel.  I know probably can figure out a way to do that but I'm still absorbing the info I have been able to get on the PPW so far.  The biggest things I see as new are the "out of many one" concept. and the sharpening 2013 action.  I am not a big fan as yet of the multiple images correction workflow.  I can see some advantages, like doing the tonal changes in one image and throwing out the color completely.  This would be a significant change for many people but it could lead to better images overall.  I may try a few suggestions form Lee Harper on that front and let you know what I find...

regarding a panel of actions I think I'd rather have an idea what I want to do and have various paths to get there.  It leaves me more flexible and allows me to adjust to the image rather than adjust the image to the workflow...

Greg

Doug.S
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Postby Doug.S » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:00 pm

"Personally, I wish I could get the scripts without the actions panel."

I believe you can download the scripts/actions/.atn separately from the PPW panel, on his web site, on same page as the new panel.
http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com/free-resources
The PPW actions (not needed if you have the panel).

Doug.S

ggroess
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:15 am
Contact:

Postby ggroess » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:01 pm

I'll take a look Doug...Thanks!
Greg

imported_ganna
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:41 am

Postby imported_ganna » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:01 am

I always set the shadow and highlight points right at the beginning of my workflow. Interesting that Dan only does this in step 3 of his PPW.

Doug.S
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Postby Doug.S » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:59 pm

I got here after reading Dan's book and trying his new panel 3.0.

Dan's approach is to fix color first, then contrast.  If one does set black and white pints, AND gray point, then there is a color change.

Dan's approach is to separate color change from contrast change (one not affecting the other).

I'm trying to decide for myself which works best and does that approach always apply; and if not, how to look at a base image and decide on which approach.

Dan's other approach is to try at least 2 different times (each time in only a few minutes; but I spend more time than that) and then consider blending each to get to the best.

I'm learning and deciding...nothing is automatic and I have the luxury of time for most of my images.

Doug.S

ggroess
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:15 am
Contact:

Postby ggroess » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:38 pm

FWIW,

I have tried it both ways...I find that I personally do better with the tonality corrected before color.  Because color is linked to brightness in RGB (the color space I use for color correction) I want the shadow and highlight close to the final level before I work on color cast.  It is easier for me personally to see if there are problems.  I do not think it matters much at all what order you do them in overall.

Remember that Dan does some of the things he does because he is on a Mac and cannot use some of the features of CM that we can.  His workflow and color space changes are dictated by the tools he has.  We can consolidate some of the corrections into a much easier workflow because we do not have to do mode switching and we do not have to restrict ourselves to one version of the image at a time.

You can correct the image in CM using RGB and before you close you can switch to LAB and try again.  The RGB changes are not lost (cached) and you can switch between the two up to the point when you click apply.  If the LAB choice is better apply that version if not apply the RGB version.

Greg


Return to “Tips and Tricks”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest