You guys have been kind of quiet...

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imported_ganna
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Postby imported_ganna » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:09 pm

Greg, I love playing around with HDR photography and I try to get the images to look  "photo-realistic" and not "hyper-realistic" I also try to go to Black and white via first doing HDR.
My confusion is to understand the relation between HDR and the zone system.  In HDR, by extending the tonal range, we cause a change in tonal width. What happen to the zones, are there overlap of tones? Then we have 3 colour channels with different changes. As I understand it a zone represent a tonal width or range.  Am I digging too deep?  Hope you understand  what I'm trying to say.
Hope you have a wonderful and peaceful Easter time

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:41 pm

Happy Easter to you as well.

In my experience or at least the way I think about it; the HDR process extends what the camera sees by merging multiple differing exposures to increase the tonal range in the resultant file or image.  HDR allows you to see beyond the physical limits of the single exposure and to bring simultaneous contrast as we experience it as seeing beings visually into a single frame. To me exaggerated color is a false result of the process and needs to be outlawed...  :)

The Zone system is a way of seeing black and white as the materials allow it to be produced. The tonal width is still restricted to the materials or devices that produce it visually.  The system just maximizes it so you "see" more tones in the image and represent it more fully and for lack of a better term more correctly.

In Digital... we have the ability to change the tonal range of the entire image to better suit the results. 

Back in the darkroom days we used contrast filters to change the color of the light hitting the B&W print because the paper was more sensitive to blue light and less sensitive to red and yellow "safe" colored lights.  This change of the light hitting the paper enhanced the contrast of the resultant image by exposing the paper more in the shadows with more of the light the paper was sensitive to and not exposing the highlights hardly at all.  Flat negatives would gain contrast after the fact because of this.  Many bad negatives were printed by me with Poly-contrast paper and a 4+ contrast filter. 

Its not really much different than that.

Greg

imported_artmar
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Postby imported_artmar » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:52 pm

Interesting that you say that HDR increases the tonal range in the resultant image. To me, it always seems to decrease the tonal range by remapping shadows and highlights to the mid-tones, which, in addition to the exaggerated color, gives it that "HDR look". Perhaps we're talking about the same thing from a different perspective?

Cheers,
Art

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:18 pm

I'd add apparent to that statement as in...

"increases apparent the tonal range."  remember that the tonal range is measurable and also perceptive.  Taking things like HK into account we can be fooled by the surrounding tonal areas.

Greg

sjordan93436
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Postby sjordan93436 » Sat May 17, 2014 10:01 pm

I have been a no show.  I did not want to make suggestions that already have been answered.  I am looking forward to the zone explanation.

(personal story-  the drought and heat waves have been very bad in my part of the country.  Last Wednesday night there was a brush fire that was heading for my home uncontrolled.  Fortunately, the wind shifted and every thing is fine.  100 degree days in April and May are tough.) 

Big Picture:

Great work.  I really like it.  Each chapter has a preview or subtitle, that is great.  A suggestion that you end with a little quiz. Also, like Dan's books, if on any given chapter you have propeller head or advanced, you can segment them out.

Also, you could add a challenge image each lesson.  I saw one guy in Italy would have a video of the images.  Bottom layer would be the original.  next layer would be an average.  Then one layer per user.  If all files were not cropped or straightened or camera corrected they would register.  Easy to see a comparison.  Just a suggestion.

I would like to suggest a section like the one in chapter 2 where you did a video comparing solutions to the shadows issues.  I get lazy and do not use all the tools available.  There are several ways to fix each problem in Photoshop with different speed and quality.  When I am done, it would be nice to have a document with problems and a variety of ways to fix.  Not a cookbook.  Novice users would want a series of actions to fix.  I would like a list of tools to get me going in the correct direction.  (perhaps I am a novice and should want a cookbook).

Further issues ??I

1.  Underexposed and shadows - you did that
2.  Overexposed -sort of inverse of the above.
3.  Over and under- how do bring an image together, sort of single image hdr.
4.  Weak skies
5.  strong color casts
6.  mixed lighting or mixed color casts. 
7.  Restoration of old and faded photographs.
8.  Noise and sharpening

For item 1 and 2-  I admit (blush) that I have not been using CM's library enough.  I almost always try shadow / highlights because it is easy but use it less than50% of the time. The bigger hammer, velvet hammer, and lesser hammer actions of DM are interesting and have helped a couple of images, but I need to remember to put it into 8 bit modes and they are a little slow on my machine.

Weak skies and a real problem for me.  In my area, either is overcast with hints of blue or no clouds at all.  CM to the rescue.  I can add a hint of blueness and keep the texture.  I hate the pasted skies I used to do.

More later.

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Sun May 18, 2014 1:38 pm

I am most certainly glad you avoided the fire....

As for your other comments...Digestion time....

It has been crazy busy for me as well...No excuses I have been a no-show on the Week 4 materials...
Focus Greg...Focus....

Greg

sjordan93436
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Postby sjordan93436 » Mon May 19, 2014 1:20 am

For example, your b&w conversion was good.  It gave a variety of methods without a ton of discussion.  It left the reader to go on and try.  there are many who do not do b&w.  It is not a great means of web images.  Also, to print it correctly takes some extra skill and some printers are better than others.

B&w and zone system could be a class in itself.  There is such a deep pool to dive in.  And consider duo tones and sepia. 

101 did not get into the luminosity blends.  I find CM very helpful at improving a channel and applying.

A good class room lesson.  Give us an image.  Let us try B&w.  (then luminosity blend)

Perhaps this all ranting and raving by .... 


ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Mon May 19, 2014 3:13 am

Rant away...

These are areas for further discussion and we are going to have to have a conference call before we are done.

Thanks for the inputs and I will be reading and considering them all.
Greg

imported_ganna
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Postby imported_ganna » Sat May 31, 2014 9:56 am

I guess, because its winter here, I have more time for indoors, near the computer and you guys in the northern hemisphere more time for outside, far away from computers ;D


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