Week 1 Link

This forum is for the 201 Class preview testers and discussion.
imported_ganna
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Postby imported_ganna » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:41 am

Greg, I think this is too much for one week. I suggest that you rather call it "session" or "chapter" than "week"1... etc and allow as much time as needed per session. Two weeks for the present part may be better. Perhaps I'm just a snail here.  Worked on the Bryce Canyon image and really enjoyed it. I've learned a lot already just by going through this "Beta chapter" Thanks a lot again

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:23 pm

Martin,
I have been considering cutting it into two sessions.  If there was a natural break in the session where would you put it?

Greg

imported_ganna
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Postby imported_ganna » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Greg, not an easy question, but I would say end session 1 with "Pantone Online Color Test" and start session 2 with "Back to our original questions…"

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:56 pm

Hmm...
I wonder if your other suggestion is better...

Maybe it becomes Session 1 and it's bigger than a single week.  As I look ahead at the materials that we get to in Week 2 (session 2) they expand on the seeing and items and they get into the black and white tonal part of the process.  I'd like to have all of the assessment stuff done before we get to that...

Others?  What do you think of keeping the length and making the time longer?  It would allow me to add more challenge images and give everyone time to "practice"...

As a student how would that play out for you??

Greg

imported_artmar
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Postby imported_artmar » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:29 pm

I think making the time longer would be a great idea, allowing time for additional exercises and practice.

Some comments as I read the material and do the exercises:

1) Comparing the face cards. This is a fascinating exercise, after looking at the cards for 10 -15 minutes I entered what felt like a meditative state, and my visual perception felt significantly enhanced afterwards. However, I think it's going to be difficult to write about the differences between cards that one sees, because we don't have terms to refer to the parts of the images that are different (and there are numerous differences!). Also, there are, if my count is correct, 66 different possible pairs of cards. I don't think you want us to compare each pair. So, it would be helpful here to have an example or two of how you want us to write about what we are seeing, and more generally how to do this exercise.

2) The Printing Ring-Around. This exercise assumes that everyone in the course will own a printer. I don't (the inexpensive printers disintegrate in a year, the worthwhile printers are expensive, rather large, and the cost of the ink cartridges (at least here in the UK) is exorbitant.)  Perhaps owning a printer should be listed up front as necessary in order to participate fully in all parts of the course. (By the way, I think that doing this exercise will take an exceptionally long time.)

3) The Pantone Online Color test. What is the purpose of  having participants post their scores?  The liability is that some people may do much worse than others and feel discouraged.  I also question participants reporting how long it took them to find the 10 differences in the two crowd photos. Similarly with the Bruce Canyon picture -- does there have to be a "best" correction?

4) Related to 3) above. On the one hand you are emphasizing learning to take one's time when "seeing", but on the other hand it seems to be desirable to do things quickly and take less time than others. People work at different rates -- why the need to report times and have a winner? There seems to be a competitive dimension introduced here that seems inconsistent with both taking the time to deeply see, and with the idea that each of us will ultimately see differently, and embody what we see in unique ways in our images. 

You have provided us with wonderfully rich material that one cannot find elsewhere, and the reader will benefit immensely from your wealth of experience in photography and the visual arts. I certainly learned a lot reading it. I just have a few concerns about implementation in a group setting.  With all this comparing of scores and times, the less experienced -- or just plain less talented -- members of the group could do less well, feel discouraged, and may drop out; and worse, it could adversely affect their relationship to photography, which I know is the last thing you would want to have happen.

Cheers,
Art

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:03 am

These are the things I want to hear about. 

The competitive nature is easily removed.  I want people to share and experience and explain.  Art i am really glad you feel the cards exercise is working for you I'll revisit the lesson and see how I can clean up the explanation.  I wanted to take something that is simple and easily overlooked and make you look deeper and experience how fast we dismiss the usual.  Many of our images contain the "usual objects" in our lives and the dismissal occurs so quickly we never even see it.  I'll have to think about the comparison issue I really want o highlight the differences. 

Printing the ring around should be done in whatever normal printing process you use.  I did not assume that the user would have a home printer.  I wanted them to use what they use for general print work.  There are two points to the lesson. 

1) There are things in the image file we do not see on the monitor.
2) a slight color cast is really hard to see on the monitor but can make itself really apparent in the print.  If I send the print to a commercial printer I still want to know what I am getting compared to what I send. I am going through that right now getting prepared for a show and knowing how to see the differences and what I cannot see on the monitor is very key to getting the tonality and color right in the final prints.

The Pantone test is more about finding your color weaknesses and being open to discussing them.  It is not a one up contest.  Hmmm  I have to think about the effect of that.  Good point.

Bryce canyon as well... the idea is to push people to work harder on an image no not just give up.  I experience that a lot when I post to the forum all the other posts dry up... and if someone posts a really good correction I really don't want that image to shut down the thread...Suggestions on preventing that are certainly welcome...

I guess for number 4 it is more about being aware of your gains over the length of the course.  I will give this some serious consideration.

Thanks Art...this is what I was looking for.  Everyone please post your opinion.

I am not looking to create a class that is perfect but I want to know what you think are the obstacles to success and what you find off putting or odd.  I know that some if this cannot be any other way because it is designed to challenge you and that can be off putting in itself.  If I can iron some of this out before the "go live" it makes it better for all of you.

Lastly would a conference call about the session be helpful? 

Greg

imported_ganna
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Postby imported_ganna » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:27 pm

Thanks Greg and Art.
1. As far as  The Pantone Online Color test: I'm not sure what to do with the extra block at the bottom, but I realised anew how important the Hue-clock is (thanks Mike) and I was shocked at how poor my colour judgement is (varies between 35 and 77) yes, I did it 3 times. Also interesting that the longer you stare at the screen, the worse. Lesson: Good to walk away and get back a bit later.
2. Workflow: I think workflows differs  from person to person, depending on what you do with your photography, hobby vs professional, workload> available time, what programs you use etc. I use Lightroom first, do some basic editing here then to PS where CM play an important role. Things to add to would be such as Lens Corrections- profile corrections, ie upright and perspective corrections; removing Chromatic abberation and Noise. I only crop my images right at the end (just before final sharpening) because in HDR you cannot easily Auto align the HDR image with one of the original images in PS for instance to remove halos etc. I also often use presets in Lightroom and Photomatix and fine tune from there.
I believe Workflow is very important and of course it can be varied depending on the need.  Greg thanks for sharing your workflow.
3. Printing: I only own a cheapish, Micky mouse printer and very seldom print my images. Problem is that my prints are way off the image on screen. I guess you need to calibrate the printer and need a good quality printer. I do not have the means or need to calibrate my printer. Because photography is just a hobby, we look at them on screen.  I understand Greg, that you will see more detail and colour correction may be just that more important when printing.  I also saw that taking the same image to two different commercial printing shops often give different results.  A friend is a wedding photographer and he bought his own printer for just this reason.
Thanks for showing us the bigger picture in editing and I believe 201 will continue from 101 to do just that. 

imported_artmar
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Postby imported_artmar » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:30 am

Glad my comments were helpful Greg. The material is fantastically rewarding. Just needs a little fine-tuning for the group presentation.
Thank you Martin -- I think you are probably correct: most non-professional photographers share their photos with others online these days, rather than by printing them. But it may be useful to do the exercise to see the differences the changes make to the image on one's monitor. But I still think it's going to take quite a long time to create these files.
It might be useful to have a conference call to talk about this issue and some of the other issues raised.

Cheers,
Art

ggroess
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Postby ggroess » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:34 am

Everyone,
The Ring around is really quite mechanical.

Your hardest print in the sets is the first one.  Getting the color and contrast right was the backbone of CM101.  Using that to create the file and just mechanically moving the curves in the directions required is actually quite fast.  If you break it down each print once you have the "master" should only take a few minutes.  They are Layer copies of the master arranged in a circle.

The ring around was a printing exercise from my first photography teacher. It was a very powerful lesson in color cast to see it printed.
I would like to be able to keep it in the plan if possible.  I understand that you might not have a printer but think of it this way if you were to go after a quality print of one of your images where would you go and how would you get it?

Greg

imported_artmar
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Postby imported_artmar » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:12 am

I understand what you're saying Greg, but how can someone do the exercise if s/he doesn't have a printer?

Cheers,
Art


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