Hello! I just joined this forum and I have some basic questions about curves that I have never seen answered. I have played with curves in Photoshop (I have version 7 and CS3, but I prefer using 7). I also have Curvemeister 3. I don't know why I decided to get it since I never understood curves in Photoshop, and I know I'll never understand them in Curvemeister.
Okay, here are the questions. First, every book, article, or online post I have ever read about using curves always start out the same way. They show you the curves adjustment window open, and they have several anchor points that they've placed on the line. They never tell you where to put the anchor points, they just tell you to place them on the line. How do you know where to place them?
The next thing they don't tell you is how many anchor points to place on the line, or why you need that many. They don't tell you which direction to move each anchor point, or how far to move it.
When I play with curves, I find that the slightest movement of the anchor point will cause a lot of change in the picture. It seems apparent to me that you can't make very slight changes to the picture using curves. You can make adjustments with the other tools in Photoshop by typing in a value or sliding a slider. This gives you exact control of what you want to apply to a picture. If you want to adjust the black point in "Levels", you can slide the slider up one number at a time.....to go from 0 to 1, and you'd get a very tiny adjustment. You can't do that with curves.
It seems to me that curves are just a guessing game, and they aren't exact in any way. You guess at where to place an anchor point, you guess at how many anchor points you need, you guess at which direction to move the anchor point, you guess at how much to move the anchor point. Is that basically what curves are, guesses?
See, this is what I want to find out before signing up for the class because if this isn't explained, or if it is explained and it's just a bunch of guesswork, then I'll stick with my other tools and avoid curves....like I've been doing.
Basic curve questions....
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mikemeister_admin
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Hi art,
I'll just jump in now whilst we wait for Mike or Greg can respond. Learning photoshop or a plugin like Curvemeister is a huge learning curve, but one well worth tackling. I have taken 2 classes with Mike and Greg and love them - you will learn every thing you need to know (and more) whilst having lots of fun chats and mind boggling teases!
The class will cover all the points you raised, each activity explains how and why you make certain choices, a lot of adjustments seem like 'guesses', but soon become 'intuition' as you become more familiar with the tools. As each image is unique there are no magic numbers, but the tweaks you make need to be tiny nudges as curves can be like applying a sledge hammer to a thumb tack.
The first week is 'open' and you join with the free trial version (this is what I did); you will soon realise that $30 is incredibly good value for money based on the level of interaction and support you will receive.
Good luck, Mandy
I'll just jump in now whilst we wait for Mike or Greg can respond. Learning photoshop or a plugin like Curvemeister is a huge learning curve, but one well worth tackling. I have taken 2 classes with Mike and Greg and love them - you will learn every thing you need to know (and more) whilst having lots of fun chats and mind boggling teases!
The class will cover all the points you raised, each activity explains how and why you make certain choices, a lot of adjustments seem like 'guesses', but soon become 'intuition' as you become more familiar with the tools. As each image is unique there are no magic numbers, but the tweaks you make need to be tiny nudges as curves can be like applying a sledge hammer to a thumb tack.
The first week is 'open' and you join with the free trial version (this is what I did); you will soon realise that $30 is incredibly good value for money based on the level of interaction and support you will receive.
Good luck, Mandy
Greetings Art..And Welcome to CM Forum.
Curves are a very powerful, very confusing, very useful tool both within Photoshop and any other program that allows you access to the image curves. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can...
The Photoshop curves windows are hard for me too. I found that I could never get it right and I was always making the image look worse. I went back to levels and hue saturation choices in Photoshop for a long time. I really get your frustration. When you use curves The three most important adjustment points are the Shadow/Highlight and where possible the neutral setting. I say where possible because not all images have a neutral point. Where to put these points is really the heart and soul of curving. In the class we take you through examples and exercises that help you identify these points quickly and make solid subjective choices that take the mystery out of the process.
How far and when to move the points is constantly changing but we'll help you get used to the process and then you are free to move as far as you want...One of the biggest hurdles is getting comfortable with the changes because they can be dramatic. Mos t of the images in the class have no definite "answer" but we allow your interpretation of the image to be a big part of the process and work with you to make sure the required parts of the image are correct enough for the output desired...print, web, or video outputs have different goals for the final corrections.
Curves can be as subtle as a feather or as strong as the sledge hammer Mandy mentions. It depends on the image, the color space, and the correction. We'll help you get the changes under control and show you ways to make things smoother. I used to think that there is no need for curves..what was the big deal...then I learned how to apply them. I have to say I rarely use Levels, Hue/Saturation, or brightness in Photoshop..To me they are too coarse for the images i want to correct. If you choose to learn about curves I really believe you will come to see it this way too.
To be honest they can seem to be guesses many times. But when I apply a curve to images I always have a reason to apply and a goal in mind. As you use curves the randomness falls away quickly and the truly powerful uses become very addictive. We cannot fix everything that is wrong in an image but we can take you a very long way towards that goal.
Art,
It is our goal here to make sure you understand the assignments, understand the materials and create curves that you understand. If we fail you on that we will refund your class fees. Please look at the "got an interesting mage" thread and read the postings. some are a bit misleading but the best postings take you from bad image to reasonable correction and show you what was done. Please ask more questions. We are always willing to help.
Greg Groess
Curves are a very powerful, very confusing, very useful tool both within Photoshop and any other program that allows you access to the image curves. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can...
Hello! I just joined this forum and I have some basic questions about curves that I have never seen answered. I have played with curves in Photoshop (I have version 7 and CS3, but I prefer using 7). I also have Curvemeister 3. I don't know why I decided to get it since I never understood curves in Photoshop, and I know I'll never understand them in Curvemeister.
Okay, here are the questions. First, every book, article, or online post I have ever read about using curves always start out the same way. They show you the curves adjustment window open, and they have several anchor points that they've placed on the line. They never tell you where to put the anchor points, they just tell you to place them on the line. How do you know where to place them?
The Photoshop curves windows are hard for me too. I found that I could never get it right and I was always making the image look worse. I went back to levels and hue saturation choices in Photoshop for a long time. I really get your frustration. When you use curves The three most important adjustment points are the Shadow/Highlight and where possible the neutral setting. I say where possible because not all images have a neutral point. Where to put these points is really the heart and soul of curving. In the class we take you through examples and exercises that help you identify these points quickly and make solid subjective choices that take the mystery out of the process.
The next thing they don't tell you is how many anchor points to place on the line, or why you need that many. They don't tell you which direction to move each anchor point, or how far to move it.
How far and when to move the points is constantly changing but we'll help you get used to the process and then you are free to move as far as you want...One of the biggest hurdles is getting comfortable with the changes because they can be dramatic. Mos t of the images in the class have no definite "answer" but we allow your interpretation of the image to be a big part of the process and work with you to make sure the required parts of the image are correct enough for the output desired...print, web, or video outputs have different goals for the final corrections.
When I play with curves, I find that the slightest movement of the anchor point will cause a lot of change in the picture. It seems apparent to me that you can't make very slight changes to the picture using curves. You can make adjustments with the other tools in Photoshop by typing in a value or sliding a slider. This gives you exact control of what you want to apply to a picture. If you want to adjust the black point in "Levels", you can slide the slider up one number at a time.....to go from 0 to 1, and you'd get a very tiny adjustment. You can't do that with curves.
Curves can be as subtle as a feather or as strong as the sledge hammer Mandy mentions. It depends on the image, the color space, and the correction. We'll help you get the changes under control and show you ways to make things smoother. I used to think that there is no need for curves..what was the big deal...then I learned how to apply them. I have to say I rarely use Levels, Hue/Saturation, or brightness in Photoshop..To me they are too coarse for the images i want to correct. If you choose to learn about curves I really believe you will come to see it this way too.
It seems to me that curves are just a guessing game, and they aren't exact in any way. You guess at where to place an anchor point, you guess at how many anchor points you need, you guess at which direction to move the anchor point, you guess at how much to move the anchor point. Is that basically what curves are, guesses?
To be honest they can seem to be guesses many times. But when I apply a curve to images I always have a reason to apply and a goal in mind. As you use curves the randomness falls away quickly and the truly powerful uses become very addictive. We cannot fix everything that is wrong in an image but we can take you a very long way towards that goal.
See, this is what I want to find out before signing up for the class because if this isn't explained, or if it is explained and it's just a bunch of guesswork, then I'll stick with my other tools and avoid curves....like I've been doing.
Art,
It is our goal here to make sure you understand the assignments, understand the materials and create curves that you understand. If we fail you on that we will refund your class fees. Please look at the "got an interesting mage" thread and read the postings. some are a bit misleading but the best postings take you from bad image to reasonable correction and show you what was done. Please ask more questions. We are always willing to help.
Greg Groess
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sjordan93436
- Posts: 462
- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:23 am
- Contact:
Art,
Are curves worth it? Take a photo. I use lightroom. Auto- CAN do wonders. It can fix it "good enough".
But then I used the sliders. Many, many photos improved. I went through a stack of 100+ JPG's in 30 minutes. Improved them much more than auto. And "good enough" for 4 by 6 snapshot prints. There were no bad shots and I wanted snapshots.
Curves are to sliders as sliders are to the "auto" button. More work. More skill. More precision. Technically, there is nothing a slider can do that curves cannot (except save time). There are many photographic problems that can only be solved with curves. Do you only do and need snapshots? No great casts. 4 by 6? Group family photos?
Or landscapes with dynamic range issues. Photos with color casts. Mixed lighting that you really want to fix right. Match a known color.
Are curves worth it? Take a photo. I use lightroom. Auto- CAN do wonders. It can fix it "good enough".
But then I used the sliders. Many, many photos improved. I went through a stack of 100+ JPG's in 30 minutes. Improved them much more than auto. And "good enough" for 4 by 6 snapshot prints. There were no bad shots and I wanted snapshots.
Curves are to sliders as sliders are to the "auto" button. More work. More skill. More precision. Technically, there is nothing a slider can do that curves cannot (except save time). There are many photographic problems that can only be solved with curves. Do you only do and need snapshots? No great casts. 4 by 6? Group family photos?
Or landscapes with dynamic range issues. Photos with color casts. Mixed lighting that you really want to fix right. Match a known color.
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mikemeister_admin
- Posts: 4927
- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:29 pm
Art,
Are curves worth it? Take a photo. I use lightroom. Auto- CAN do wonders. It can fix it "good enough".
But then I used the sliders. Many, many photos improved. I went through a stack of 100+ JPG's in 30 minutes. Improved them much more than auto. And "good enough" for 4 by 6 snapshot prints. There were no bad shots and I wanted snapshots.
Curves are to sliders as sliders are to the "auto" button. More work. More skill. More precision. Technically, there is nothing a slider can do that curves cannot (except save time). There are many photographic problems that can only be solved with curves. Do you only do and need snapshots? No great casts. 4 by 6? Group family photos?
Or landscapes with dynamic range issues. Photos with color casts. Mixed lighting that you really want to fix right. Match a known color.
Hi there Jordan! Well, the thing is, I have never used curves because they made no sense to me....and I did try to understand them. When I see an original photo, then what it looks like after curves were applied, it doesn't look any better than what I can do without curves. I do use other plugins that help speed up the process, and I rarely ever use the Auto Levels.
I use the Kodak ROC plugin, and Color Mechanic Pro plugin to speed up my editing process. Those are in addition to Photoshop's Levels, Contrast/Brightness, Color Balance, and Hue/Saturation, just to name a few.
I only do photo editing and restoration as a hobby, so it's not as if I depend on it for a living, I just enjoy working on photos. If curves can help me to do a better job, then I want to try to learn them.
I figured I'd sign up for this class and give curves one more try and if I still don't understand them, it's no big deal. I'll just permanently give up on them, and use the tools I already have. I have tried so many times to use curves, and got so disgusted with them, that I get angry just thinking about them. To say that I hate curves would be an understatement, but I've never taken a class on them, so maybe that's what I needed. :)
As I tell my kids...Hate is such a strong word.... ;D
Art I think if you give it an honest try and hang in there for the first three weeks you willunderstand this stuff and actually might just have a bit of fun...I do try to keep it light and fun. During the first week I dream up all kinds of Mayhem for the open part of the class. Our goals are to show off a bit so you can see what can be done with curves.
By the way...We use all Photoshop tools in here we are not restricted to Curves...There is a time and a place for curves and that is part of the class as well...Our goals are marked improvement in the image...I don't teach sharpening but I sure can use it...I don't teach noise reduction but I sure do take advantage of it as needed...
Greg
Art I think if you give it an honest try and hang in there for the first three weeks you willunderstand this stuff and actually might just have a bit of fun...I do try to keep it light and fun. During the first week I dream up all kinds of Mayhem for the open part of the class. Our goals are to show off a bit so you can see what can be done with curves.
By the way...We use all Photoshop tools in here we are not restricted to Curves...There is a time and a place for curves and that is part of the class as well...Our goals are marked improvement in the image...I don't teach sharpening but I sure can use it...I don't teach noise reduction but I sure do take advantage of it as needed...
Greg
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imported_julie
- Posts: 464
- Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:41 am
hi art,
I did the class last year and it was fantastic. My photos have never looked better. With curvemeister you have the option of a very simple or incredibly complex adjustments. I have never been able to understand photoshop curves and dont use them but use curvemeister all the time.
Its a steep learning curve but definitely worth it. I now understand colour in a whole new way. The class really taught me to look at a photo and figure out what needs adjusting, not just how to adjust it.
I cannot recommend curvemeister and the 101 class highly enough
Julie
I did the class last year and it was fantastic. My photos have never looked better. With curvemeister you have the option of a very simple or incredibly complex adjustments. I have never been able to understand photoshop curves and dont use them but use curvemeister all the time.
Its a steep learning curve but definitely worth it. I now understand colour in a whole new way. The class really taught me to look at a photo and figure out what needs adjusting, not just how to adjust it.
I cannot recommend curvemeister and the 101 class highly enough
Julie
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mikemeister_admin
- Posts: 4927
- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:29 pm
Hey Greg and Julie! I will give it an honest effort Greg, but I'm so biased against curves that I might get frustrated easily. See, because I've tried to use curves so many times with poor results, I got to where I just ignored them. When I couldn't get them to improve an image, I used other tools that worked just as well, if not better than curves. I'm only trying one last time because I hear people constantly saying that curves are so good, so I thought that I'd give them one last try.
Julie, I hope the learning curve isn't too steep because I'm old and I have trouble learning new things. :D I'm afraid that if the learning curve is too steep, I'll just revert back to using the other tools and forget about using curves.
Of course, I'll wait till the class before passing any final judgment on curves, but it's hard to have an open mind when I've never been able to do anything constructive with them. I've even used Curvemeister's Wizard that walks you through an automated process to using it. You set the black point, the white point, the neutral point, which always ruined the picture so I never used it, and the flesh tones. The results were so bad that I finally stopped playing with it, and went back to my usual methods which yielded much better results.
Anyway, thanks for the positive input.....I know I'm negative about curves, but I'll try not to be too much of a downer during the classes. :)
Julie, I hope the learning curve isn't too steep because I'm old and I have trouble learning new things. :D I'm afraid that if the learning curve is too steep, I'll just revert back to using the other tools and forget about using curves.
Of course, I'll wait till the class before passing any final judgment on curves, but it's hard to have an open mind when I've never been able to do anything constructive with them. I've even used Curvemeister's Wizard that walks you through an automated process to using it. You set the black point, the white point, the neutral point, which always ruined the picture so I never used it, and the flesh tones. The results were so bad that I finally stopped playing with it, and went back to my usual methods which yielded much better results.
Anyway, thanks for the positive input.....I know I'm negative about curves, but I'll try not to be too much of a downer during the classes. :)
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mikemeister_admin
- Posts: 4927
- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:29 pm
Hi Art,
I took the CurveMeister 101 course in July, and can guarantee that you're going to love it ;D Greg is a wonderful teacher, and is very patient and generous with his time. On top of that, the curriculum that you will be working through has been very carefully put together by Greg and Mike; you'll be taken through everything very gently.
The learning curve really isn't too steep at all, as everything is covered in depth, slowly, and with the forum as a support (the course-specific forum area is invaluable, and offers the opportunity to gain clarification about any of the material covered in the course materials).
In the meantime though, I once took a Ben Wilmore seminar and he discussed a really useful mental-model you can use to grasp the behaviour of Curves. If you're American then this will make more sense to you than it initially did to me (I'm based in the UK), but in any case... If we assume that pushing the curve upwards brightens the image (as it does by default in RGB), think about this being exactly the same behaviour as an American dimmer switch - push the slider upwards, the lights get brighter. The problem with Curves (as you mentioned in your initial post) is that there are 256 dimmer sliders, and it can be difficult to know which dimmer to use (where to place a point). Still, if you're in the US, you're likely familiar with rooms containing more than one dimmer (a kitchen perhaps) - we just get to work with even more precision (Levels only provides 3 dimmer sliders).
In Photoshop 7, or CS3, having opened the Curve dialog, holding the mouse-button down and moving the mouse over your image will cause a bubble to move along the diagonal line in the Curve window; the purpose of this bubble is to show you which dimmer slider controls which area within your image. The idea (for enhancing contrast - colour is a little more complicated) is to identify which sliders correspond with the darkest and lightest pixels within the important area(s) of your image (a face perhaps). Having found these points along the line, you Ctrl (PC) or Command (Mac) click in the image at these two locations, to create two points on the diagonal line; these points are the two dimmer sliders that you are going to use.
Having created these two points so carefully, it would be a shame to inadvertently use a different slider to change the brightness values (because they wouldn't exactly correspond to the important areas that you had identified), so rather than using the mouse to move these points up (to brighten the area) or down (to darken the area), use the up and down arrow keys. The arrow keys provide you with the degree of control that you have previously not been able to achieve. To move between the two points that you have created just press the tab key (as far as I remember - I'm using CS5 and the keyboard shortcuts are not quite the same).
--
Hopefully that made sense ;) The important thing to remember is that no-one was born knowing how to use Curves; we've only become proficient because we have benefited from good tuition - the CurveMeister 101 course is the very best place to learn this stuff, you'll be in very good hands.
Good luck - and enjoy it ;D
Lee.
I took the CurveMeister 101 course in July, and can guarantee that you're going to love it ;D Greg is a wonderful teacher, and is very patient and generous with his time. On top of that, the curriculum that you will be working through has been very carefully put together by Greg and Mike; you'll be taken through everything very gently.
The learning curve really isn't too steep at all, as everything is covered in depth, slowly, and with the forum as a support (the course-specific forum area is invaluable, and offers the opportunity to gain clarification about any of the material covered in the course materials).
In the meantime though, I once took a Ben Wilmore seminar and he discussed a really useful mental-model you can use to grasp the behaviour of Curves. If you're American then this will make more sense to you than it initially did to me (I'm based in the UK), but in any case... If we assume that pushing the curve upwards brightens the image (as it does by default in RGB), think about this being exactly the same behaviour as an American dimmer switch - push the slider upwards, the lights get brighter. The problem with Curves (as you mentioned in your initial post) is that there are 256 dimmer sliders, and it can be difficult to know which dimmer to use (where to place a point). Still, if you're in the US, you're likely familiar with rooms containing more than one dimmer (a kitchen perhaps) - we just get to work with even more precision (Levels only provides 3 dimmer sliders).
In Photoshop 7, or CS3, having opened the Curve dialog, holding the mouse-button down and moving the mouse over your image will cause a bubble to move along the diagonal line in the Curve window; the purpose of this bubble is to show you which dimmer slider controls which area within your image. The idea (for enhancing contrast - colour is a little more complicated) is to identify which sliders correspond with the darkest and lightest pixels within the important area(s) of your image (a face perhaps). Having found these points along the line, you Ctrl (PC) or Command (Mac) click in the image at these two locations, to create two points on the diagonal line; these points are the two dimmer sliders that you are going to use.
Having created these two points so carefully, it would be a shame to inadvertently use a different slider to change the brightness values (because they wouldn't exactly correspond to the important areas that you had identified), so rather than using the mouse to move these points up (to brighten the area) or down (to darken the area), use the up and down arrow keys. The arrow keys provide you with the degree of control that you have previously not been able to achieve. To move between the two points that you have created just press the tab key (as far as I remember - I'm using CS5 and the keyboard shortcuts are not quite the same).
--
Hopefully that made sense ;) The important thing to remember is that no-one was born knowing how to use Curves; we've only become proficient because we have benefited from good tuition - the CurveMeister 101 course is the very best place to learn this stuff, you'll be in very good hands.
Good luck - and enjoy it ;D
Lee.
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